Established 1999

POLITICAL OPPOSITION

18 kwiecień 2008

A clean slate

If I tell the true about the deception of society by the elite and others on the right or left sides of the Sejm, if I talk about the rotten elements currently dominating Poland in the political elite, if I talk about the raffling off of fortunes for a song, fortunes accumulated by several generations – they call me a populist. If people evaluate the situation in the same way and support my activities, opponents call me a demagogue that makes unfounded promises. However, none of the opponents who sling mud my way want to discuss Samoobrona`s program, which is coherent, logical and realistically implementable in Poland, based on the newest achievements in the global economy – says Andrzej Lepper, Samoobrona party leader.


ANDRZEJ LEPPER



Leader of Samoobrona RP



talks to Damian A. Zaczek



You are accused of populism and demagoguery in announcing unfounded controversial opinions. Should you be feared?


During 15 years of political activity, I have gotten used to accusations of various kinds. Populist, demagogue, dictator – these are the mildest epithets which have been used to describe me by so-called “elites,” who are supposedly well-educated, well-mannered and honest. I treat this as a normal phenomenon in politics. However, if people who believe themselves to be “independent experts,” people from Warsaw’s elite salons, can express these kinds of vulgarities about the leader of a party with the largest social support and about Samoobrona as a “political weed,” this goes beyond the boundaries of decency and manners, not only in politics, but in ordinary life. To some it seems that just because they have an academic degree or the ability to publish their “nonsense” in the media, they are free to do what they please. This behavior on the part of the so-called elite demonstrates that I am right and doing my job.


If I tell the true about the deception of society by the elite and others on the right or left sides of the Sejm, if I talk about the rotten elements currently dominating Poland in the political elite, if I talk about the raffling off of fortunes for a song, fortunes accumulated by several generations – they call me a populist. If people evaluate the situation in the same way and support my activities, opponents call me a demagogue that makes unfounded promises. However, none of the opponents who sling mud my way want to discuss Samobrona’s program, which is coherent, logical and realistically implementable in Poland, based on the newest achievements in the global economy. The political foundations of the socio-economic program by Samoobrona, which I present to society during my meetings, are convergent with the views of talented economists worldwide such as 2001 Nobel Prize winner Prof. Joseph Siglitz and 1993 Nobel Prize winner D. C. Nort. That is the source of accusations that my controversial opinions are unfounded. If it is considered bad taste in elite economic circles in Warsaw to talk positively about Prof. Stiglitz, then it is also in good taste to sling mud at Andrzej Lepper.


Should I be feared? I answer definitively that society cannot fear Andrzej Lepper nor Samoobrona. When Samoobrona gains the social mandate to rule the state, people will catch their breath and regain hope in the improvement of their fate. Only those who illegally amass fortunes at the cost of society and introduced economic relations to Poland which are more characteristic of third-world dictatorships, and not civilized Europe, should be afraid. Anachronistic market fundamentalists who believe that the economy can function without interference from the state should be afraid and will lose their influence in the state. Finally, those who have taken advantage of political power to dole out privileges to their rich friends should also fear me – they will certainly be accounted for.


In Citizens’ Platform (PO) Samoobrona members are described as “barbarians.” What would you say to PO?


Only what I have already said publicly. Rokita (PO leader) declared war against Samoobrona. Members of PO played a large role in the looting of Poland. They come from parties like the Liberal Democratic Congress, which in its day society called a “clique of false incomes” and the Democratic Union, later Freedom Union. Their ranks include “talented privatizers” of the national heritage, led by Lewandowski. In response to the description of Samobrona by Rokita “barbarians” I will one day say “thieves.” I would also like to add “destroyers of the Polish economy.” PO rank and file includes people who have ruled Poland for 15 years: Rokita, Lewandowski, Tusk. To a certain extent they are also responsible for the scope of poverty and misery in Polish society.


Samobrona leads in all the polls in an equal rivalry with Citizens’ Platform. Is PO the primary political force with which Samoobrona has to compete? What about the left? The Democratic Left Alliance (SLD), Polish Social-Democracy (SdPL)?


Samoobrona is the party with the highest social support. This is not the result of political rivalry with anyone nor a fight with the PO. Samoobrona has a good, coherent socio-economic program for Poland. We use every opportunity to make as many citizens familiar will our program, goals and aspirations as possible. The more people are acquainted with our goals and aspirations, the more support Samoobrona gains. We are fighting for the understanding of our program, goals and aspirations by the people. We are not interested in PO as a political rival – if it comes up with a better program than ours and the nation accepts it, that can only benefit Poland. However, to date these supposedly “outstanding activists and intellectualists” centered around PO have only introduced “program assumptions” including proposals which were ridiculed by most people such as the flat VAT tax 3×15, flat CIT tax and flat personal income tax rates – everything at the level of 15 percent and a limit on company cars and mobile phones for state officials. Is that a program worthy of discussion? For us the highest power and authority is the nation. We are fighting exclusively for the success of the country, its citizens in a united Europe, in a contemporary world and not against another political group no matter what kind of facade they sport or if they are called PO, SLD, SdPL, PSL or otherwise.


Who are Samoobrona’s voters?


Citizens of the Republic who have the right to vote. Among Samoobrona voters are residents of Poland and Poles living abroad from all social backgrounds. Our voters live in the countryside, smaller cities and large cities. They include farmers, workers and intelligentsia since Samoobrona is a national party in which activists and members are representatives of every community and profession. Samoobrona’s program is also a program for the entire country and is not just addressed to specific social groups.


In public opinion statements about Samoobrona’s voters many offensive words are used to refer to Poles. Frequently opinions from “independent” experts can be heard or read, which describe Samoobrona voters exclusively as uneducated and residents of rural areas. Sometimes it is said that these are people who don’t want to work. One such self-appointed publicist expressed the view that Samoobrona voters are a lumpenproletariat that originates from the former State Agricultural Collectives. How much arrogance, stupidity and disrespect for your own society, as well as hatred for Samoobrona, do you have to have to call 30 percent of society which voted for Samoobrona a lumpenproletariat.


Samoobrona was established in 1992. What was the impulse? Why was the party created?


I have said publicly several times that the founding father of Samoobrona was Leszek Balcerowicz. He effectively created conditions for the creation of a social movement against misery and the loss of a lifetime’s hard work. Samoobrona was not established, like other political parties, in offices or private clubs. When Balcerowicz threw a noose around the necks of our most active citizens in August 1991, I went to Darłów in a trailer and spoke to those slighted people. I spoke to those who rode their farming equipment to the market square in Darłów to show how damaged Polish agriculture was. I introduced people to the notion of a fight for dignity and the concept of self-defense against a new leader with a “primary” specialization in the economy, Leszek Balcerowicz. First the Agricultural Trade Union was established. After a protest in front of the Sejm and my conversation, as representative of the farmers, with Leszek Balcerowicz, I become convinced that the current political path was the undoing of Poland. At that point you could say I made an oath to organize a defense movement against Leszek Balcerowicz’s politics. I traveled around the country and talked to people explaining what awaited farmers if we didn’t stand up against the intentions of those who took over Poland after 1989. More and more people knew about Andrzej Lepper and Samoobrona’s program. Yes, in a way that I haven’t noticed, you could say I’ve become a public figure. Then, with a group of colleagues, we decided that in addition to the trade union we would create a political party which would enable us to defend the interests of not only farmers, but a society that was increasingly poor, more effectively.


So, since 1992 the Samoobrona party has functioned on the Polish political scene, a party needed in Poland and by society.


What is Samoobrona’s program?


Samoobrona’s program is extensive and difficult to present in a few sentences – written, it is over 100 pages. The foundations of the political program are based on the newest economic and market theories. First we conducted a diagnosis of the causes behind the market crisis, then we formulated the main assumptions for repairing the Polish economy, finally we presented specific proposals for solutions in basic areas of socio-economic life. We have also introduced propositions for solutions to general problems connected with our membership in the European Union.


To whom is the program addressed?


Samoobrona’s program is for Poland and addressed to the entire nation.


Are you in favor of early parliamentary elections? If so when should elections take place?


Samoobrona Rzeczpospolitej Polskiej is the first party to appropriately evaluate the political situation in Poland. For a long time we have presented a consistent position, that there is a political crisis, a ruling crisis and a state crisis taking place in our country. The Parliamentary Club Samoobrona in June 2003 submitted a project for the resolution of the Sejm. At that time we were already sure that this parliamentary arrangement was exhausted and that a renewal of the mandate to rule Poland was essential. The then Speaker of the Sejm, Marek Borowski, today one of those who is calling for early elections, didn’t treat our proposal seriously. Our next resolution project was submitted in December 2003. Then a wave of such projects started to flow in from other parties. The then ruling coalition SLD-UP opposed early elections and the Sejm was not dissolved, neither were early elections held together with elections to the European Parliament June 13. This is a great shame and wrong for Poland. Every day that this arrangement lasts in the Sejm, which is actually able to block any proposal for its dissolution even though it cannot handle other issues that are important for Poland, deepens the crisis and harms the citizens of our country. Samoobrona has not changed its evaluation of the situation in Poland and is consistently in favor of early elections. They should take place at the earliest convenience. Opponents of early elections claim that the high level of Samoobrona’s support is the reason we want early elections. This is nonsense that has nothing to do with our intentions. The first project concerning dissolution of the Sejm was submitted by Samoobrona when public opinion research centers reported our support at more or less 10 percent.


Let’s move on to European affairs. What does your party want to accomplish in the European Parliament?


Our plans in reference to the EP depend first and foremost on the voters. The extent to which we will be able to operate in the EP will depend on the support which voters give us. If we have a strong representation in the EP enabling us to create a target group, that is at least 20 deputies, we will certainly have a chance to implement our program. Our program in the EP is the creation of conditions for the renegotiation of the Polish Accession Treaty, which is disadvantageous for Poland, treatment of Poland in the EU as a partner and defense of Polish national interests within the framework of EU membership. That kind of representation by Samoobrona deputies would allow us to effectively oppose treatment of Poland as a market for surplus production from countries of the so-called old EU, or the 15, denial of access to European labor markets for Polish citizens and treatment of Poland as a second-class member of the EU.


Only Samoobrona deputies can implement such a program in the EP because only we do not have any obligations to Brussels. We haven’t made any political or social arrangements with union commissioners. We can defend Polish interests without any inhibitions and, wherever diplomacy is needed, adjust to those requirements or make our case where we are able to introduce our ideas directly and firmly. No one can tell us that we behaved differently during the negotiations or that we promised anything else. We have a clean slate in defending Polish national interests.


Should euro-deputies fear their new colleagues – deputies from Samoobrona?


Again about fear of Samoobrona and additionally in an international context. Why would euro-deputies from other countries need to fear Samoobrona? We are not going to the EP in order to frighten someone. Our intent in the EP is to protect Polish national interests. We hope and are convinced that everyone will cooperate with our deputies on the basis of honest and partner relations. There are already four Samoobrona deputies in the EP and we are working actively to present in the parliament forum our positions concerning Poland’s participation in the EU. I can’t see that anyone is afraid of us. Just the opposite, after my appearance in the fall of 2002, I was congratulated by chairman Pat Cox. Only the media in our country try to devaluate the work of Samoobrona in the EP forum. Polish media frighten Poles and euro-deputies with Samoobrona. Issues which are normal and clear such as, for example, crossing the time limit for an address, unnoticed by European media, are presented in Poland as a big affair and an embarrassment for the country – just because Andrzej Lepper spoke too long by a few seconds.


What will Samoobrona strive or fight for in the EP?


Samoobrona always has and always will strive for implementation of Polish national interests, as much in the EP as in mutual contacts with EU countries and our eastern neighbors: Ukraine, Russia and Belarus. We will strive and fight for a dignified place for Poland in Europe and the world, which is adequate to our economic, cultural and intellectual potential. We will oppose and fight manifestations of second-class treatment of Poland as a market for production surplus. We will also protect Poland from a wave of models that are unacceptable for our citizens such as mass culture, uniformity and, as some describe this process, McDonaldization. Polish culture is colorful, rich and has many traditions so we will fight to make our entry in the EU more than just an attempt to rub these things out, or worse, to liquidate the accomplishments of Polish culture.


What do you expect from the euro-elections in Brussels and on the Polish political scene?


First and foremost I do not only expect but am convinced that Samoobrona will have a large and well-prepared representation for work in the EP. Our lists feature candidates who are well-prepared to fulfill the duties of deputy in the EP. Aside from expert qualifications, our candidates are not and were never embroiled in political arrangements in the country, which enables them to defend Polish interests on the European forum without outside pressure and in accordance with their knowledge and conscience.


However, in terms of the Polish political scene, I am convinced that elections on June 13 will show that the current ruling formation does not have society’s mandate or permission to continue their term. The elections will show that current leaders should leave the political scene immediately because society doesn’t want them handling the country’s affairs. Results of the European elections will at the same time be the withdrawal of trust in current ruling groups. They realize that this day is coming closer and even our current President, Alexander Kwaśniewski, is afraid, which is why he wants to maintain the current arrangement for several months by calling for a government under Marek Belka. They need these months to erase all traces of their rule because they understand that the results of EP elections will provide a strong argument for early elections to the Sejm.


Does Samoobrona want to cause the withdrawal of Poland from the EU?


They try to put Samoobrona in various roles, one of those is an attempt to frighten the EU with Samoobrona. By saying that Samoobrona will work toward the withdrawal of Poland from the EU, they are searching for allies abroad among various political forces in order to combat us in the international forum. I presented our unambiguous position on Poland’s entry into the EU Nov. 18, 2002 – as I mentioned before after that appearance in the EP, I was congratulated by Pat Cox. That position states unambiguously that Poland can only enter the EU on the basis of equality. We are a nation which has contributed the most to the current shape of Europe and participation in the EU as an equal partner is what we deserve – no one is doing us a favor. In the EP, I said that we were the first to resist Hitler, although abandoned by our western allies. In 1980 we successfully began to dislodge communism, which ended in the bloodless collapse of communism not only in Poland but throughout Europe. We created conditions for the fall of the Berlin wall, which undoubtedly must be recognized as the beginning of EU expansion by 10 new countries May 1, 2004 that provided a chance for a united Europe. In my address I also said that after these historic experiences, if Poland is cheated by the Union, if instead of equal membership we are treated by other countries as a conquered economy, if instead of partnership we are only a market and reservoir of cheap labor for the worst jobs, then Poles will have the determination to leave the EU. I said that deceiving Poland can only be the beginning of the end for such an EU. Is there anything in that position about striving for Poland’s withdrawal from the EU? Is defense of the right to partnership and equal treatment the same as the desire to take Poland out of the Union?


I say firmly and unambiguously: Samoobrona does not strive for the withdrawal of Poland from the EU. Samoobrona will strive to renegotiate the Accession Treaty so that Poland can be an equal member.


What do you have against the EU?


I don’t have anything against the Union. On the contrary, I can only follow the example of the so-called old Union or countries of the 15 in defending one’s national interests. It is a normal for me that every country, every government should first defend the interests of the nation and only then the interests of the international organization to which it belongs. Countries of the 15 have shown that this is how they operate. However, I do have something against Polish negotiators and the Polish ruling team for accepting these membership conditions. The fact that we entered the EU on unequal conditions is not the fault of the EU but of our decision-makers, who led us to that Union on our knees. Those shocking quarrels between the president and prime minister about who should raise the European flag May 1. The situation in Dublin, where the representative of Poland to receive the European flag was both the prime minister and president, shows the mentality and primary goal which accompanied them during the negotiations. They wanted to bring Poland into the EU at any cost without a care for the conditions under which it was accomplished. For them the most important thing was a ceremony on a European scale and not the conditions for our membership.


Several members of Samoobrona are in trouble with the law. Why do you treat Polish law so lightly?


We do not treat Polish law lightly. We have submitted to the courts and humbly execute the sentences of those courts. We must pay attention to the basis of the legal problems of deputies. The majority are connected with political activities – even for appearing in the Sejm tribunal. Of course, thieves and criminals from all political groupings who have economic affairs on their conscience want to pull Samoobrona deputies into “their circle” since Samoobrona is trying to bring all those matters to light. They involve the prosecutor general in even the smallest matters so that the media can broadcast for months about what criminals are in Samoobrona. They are well-trained in this. Their antecedents during the Stalinist period effectively destroyed people using that method and even sentenced some to death. They want to use the same strategy to fight Samoobrona but luckily we live in different times. It is impossible to carry out a death sentence for telling the truth about thieves from the Sejm tribunal, which is why those thieves feel slandered and start running to the court. These affairs can only be used in the media by some editorial offices. However, as you can see, society is smarter and won’t be taken in by propaganda that creates an image of Samobrona deputies as criminals.


Samoobrona is famous for its “unconventional” behavior: blockading the Sejm rostrum and Polish roads, dumping grain on railroad tracks. Can’t you participate in politics using more civilized methods?


We are already a member of the EU. You have just named the most innocent forms of protest in EU countries and you call them uncivilized? Haven’t you seen protests by French farmers? If the Polish government had to deal with, for example, French farmers, it would realize quickly how blockages of highways, and not roads as in the Polish case, are done. In France during a protest, several thousand farming machines are used to block the highway and tons of agricultural produce is dumped: cabbages, cauliflower, tomatoes. In front of the ministry of agriculture, trucks dump tons of tomatoes and no one in Europe calls those protests uncivilized. Please remember the demonstrations by million of Italian workers in defense of the tax code or German workers who protested against social cuts and demanded pay raises. You would call a group of freezing Polish farmers blocking a road for a few hours or nurses blocking crossroads in streets in Wrocław an uncivilized protest. The behavior of Polish authorities is uncivilized during such protests. Please imagine what would happen in Germany, Italy or France if a government gave the order to fire using rubber bullets at protesting farmers or workers. If the governments of those countries behaved in that way towards protesters, it would cause a revolution and the authorities would probably be carried out of their offices on trays.


So, what is uncivilized about blocking the Sejm tribunal? Speaker of the Sejm Marek Borowski wanted to shut the mouths of Samoobrona deputies. He thought that the Sejm is the living room of his apartment and seemed to believe that if he didn’t allow someone to talk then everyone should sit quietly. We were forced to block the Sejm tribunal by the then Speaker Marek Borowski. We had to demonstrate that we will not allow our mouths to be shut – we promised the voters that we will speak the truth in the Sejm and had to fight for the chance to speak. While Marek Borowski led the Sejm, in the space of barely two years, Sejm regulations were changed several times and always in order to hinder Samoobrona deputies in fulfilling their mandate. We had to defend ourselves against this discrimination and find ways to do it. In such a situation the most critical and offended parties are the biggest Polish thieves – they stole from Poland and now they have become the most delicate people with the most developed morality and ethics.


What is your position on the issue of Polish participation in the military operation in Iraq?


I am decidedly against. You said “military operation,” but I would also call it the occupation of Iraq. This is not our war. Poles are participating in the defense of interests which are, we must admit, dirty American interests. The responsibility for sending our army to Iraq, in violation of the Polish Constitution, rests first and foremost with President Aleksander Kwaśniewski. From the very beginning, I was against participation in this war and in the initiation of a war at all as well as the American occupation of Iraq. I did everything to prevent it. I presented my own peace initiatives based on a role for the UN in resolving the Iraq problem and toppling the regime of Saddam Hussein. Then, under the blue UN flag, Polish soldiers in Iraq would have another political and moral significance. Currently that significance is as an occupying force in a foreign country and I am definitely against it. During Sejm debates concerning the expose of Prime Minister Marek Belka May 14, I said unambiguously that if, following early elections, society gives Samoobrona a chance to exercise power, Polish soldiers will be withdrawn from Iraq within two months of the day we come to power.


Thank you.


W wydaniu 2, June 2004 również

  1. VIEWPOINT FROM THE RIGHT

    Without stars
  2. VIEWPOINT FROM THE LEFT

    We are a family
  3. FROM THE EDITOR

    The first weeks
  4. TANGLED REFLECTIONS

    In the Union
  5. DECISIONS AND ETHICS

    The CSR euro-marathon
  6. CURRENT POLITICS

    Political dance
  7. POLISH AGRICULTURE

    Storks understand...
  8. POLAND - EAST

    Politics & economy
  9. REGIONS

    I know eurocrats
  10. BRITISH DIPLOMACY

    Cheerful personality
  11. TURKISH DIPLOMACY

    An element of tradition
  12. IN POLAND

    Press review
  13. POETRY

    Czesław Miłosz
  14. CONTEMPORARY ART

    Franciszek Maśluszczak
  15. POLITICAL OPPOSITION

    A clean slate